Birds to the Front: A Conversation with Montreal's Birds of Prrrey

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Birds of Prrrey via Facebook (from left to right: Grace Spitzley, Noelle Inniss and Clarence Tremblay)

In a 8 x 8 music space in Verdun, Birds of Prrrey (yes, the 3 Rs are important) are getting ready to rehearse for the night’s show. It's small, hot, and stuffy, but time is money and they don’t have any to waste. Grace Spitzley, the band’s bassist, is dutifully looking over their schedule. Noelle Inniss, the drummer, is reminiscing on funny anecdotes. Clarence Tremblay, the guitarist, is setting up their gear, while explaining that this was the first room they've ever played in, and that the other rooms are much better.

There’s a direct contrast between the playful atmosphere of this rehearsal and the focused recording sessions that Birds of Prrrey had in the studio gearing up for their first EP release. Those days were characterised by missing equipment, sound malfunctions, and delays. “Personally, I almost cried,” says Noelle while explaining their initial difficulties. Old equipment required the band to adapt quickly and be flexible when unexpected things happened – things like having to record a song while not being able to hear yourself, or your fellow band members, at all. 

Though the Birds of Prrrey had a rough start, the band fondly recalls sharing a hug with their producer Ben Rowland during their last session. “Our last take, it was so easy,” says Clarence. Noelle chimes in: “[If you] think about it too hard, that’s when you fuck up.”

Released in early July, Yet, we’re still growing in place features only songs that have been performed live, so the band’s family, friends, and everyone who regularly hits up MTL’s thrift shops will finally be able to stream to their hearts’ desires!

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Graphic by Winie Coulanges

The creation of this EP served as a way for the band to let go of the past and look forward to the future – a time of transformation and new beginnings. It granted the band members an opportunity to embrace new memories and to escape negativity. As for how they feel now that the EP is out? Grace describes the feeling as cathartic. “Finally, we’re getting it out there for the world, and it’s our first big thing!’’ She hopes listeners will be able to recognize themselves in the songs.

Written over the course of 2023 while the band was going through growing pains, the EP touches on themes of love, power, self-reflection and independence. “Training Wheels”, the band’s favourite song, is an assemblage of all the qualities that make up Birds of Prrrey, such as humour, friendship and perseverance. Symbolic of the journey that brought them to this point, this track also serves as a reminder that their music is not a silly pastime or hobby but a real passion. “It’s such a beautiful song, we made something so beautiful and legit,” Noelle says.  “I have never felt more proud.”

Clarence recalls performing the song “Hatemail” at a show—a song they wrote about an unhappy relationship that was about to end—and locking eyes with an older man in the audience. “I was singing lyrics to a new song, and I saw an adult man who wasn’t there for us, he was there for the other band. Truly, listening to the lyrics and nodding his head like I was saying his truth. That gave me so much more confidence in what I was saying, like I wasn’t crazy.”

If Birds of Prrrey songs are intense and poignant, their social media presence is the opposite. Well-curated, it features many images of birds, memes and photos of the band. They don’t take themselves too seriously. Used to promote upcoming shows and document their evolution, the colourful images along with the funny captions invite everyone to feel welcome to dive into the universe that is Birds of Prrrey. Grace says, “I find that living in the city, performing at the same five venues, some bands take themselves way too seriously.” 

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Graphic by Winie Coulanges

Clarence describes it as a method to connect with their audience outside of live shows and to express themselves. Their openness and camaraderie not only makes the band unique and approachable, but it grabs the attention of potential collaborators. They’ve been able to work with artists of many different disciplines like animators, textile artists and graphic designers in their short career. Recently, they collaborated with an animator and artist named Sherry (also known as @Aecolyte) on the cover of their EP. “ They have a softness to their artwork but also deal with dark themes, it fits perfectly with our EP, ” explains Clarence. 

During a small break in their rehearsal, the band reminisces on a time someone compared them to The Beatles; the band, finding it hilarious, immediately jumped into an impromptu rendition of “Blackbird”. As for their actual musical inspirations, the band lists the Breeders, Hole, Mitski and Bikini Kill. At first glance, you might mistake them for riot grrrls. Despite their name and grunge aesthetic, complete with drawn-on Converse sneakers, Clarence clarifies: “We don’t think we are riot grrrls – to be a riot grrrl is to be political. We are just uplifting the movement.” They’re also not punk, Clarence explains: “ I would never say we’re punk – people call us punk, but I think they just use it as an umbrella term for those who make loud music.”

Debuting in the male-dominated Montreal music scene, it was a bit daunting for Birds of Prrrey to find their place. However, they quickly found an audience that was waiting for a band like theirs to come into the scene; young women and queer people taking up space and expressing themselves on their own terms, not wanting to confirm. While their initial demographic might’ve been fellow early 20-somethings, it’s clear that Birds of Prrrey can appeal to anyone. “There’s a part of our audience who we would've never thought would be interested in us, and it goes to show that it’s truly about the music,” Clarence shares. 

If you’ve never seen Birds of Prrrey live, a typical show might be prefaced with sentences murmured in the crowd like “This isn’t Birds of Prrrey” and “All the good bands are in Brooklyn.” Quick little quips as well as inside jokes serve as transitions between songs and each member shines in their own unique way. Noelle’s explosive drum solo at the end of “Noelle’s emo song” is captivating and full of emotion. Grace’s electric vocals over their fan-favourite cover of “These Boots Were Made for Walkin’” makes the crowd go wild. Clarence entertains the audience with their cool and charming personality. With a sea of moshing and bopping heads listening carefully to every song, Birds of Prrrey puts on a remarkable show. Towards the end of the night, you’ll usually find the members floating around the venue socializing and giving out handmade stickers to anyone who asks. 

Catch Birds of Prrrey at La Sotterenea on July 26th hosting and performing Bird Ball, their EP release show with a pop-up vendor market.

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Graphic by Winie Coulanges

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YET, WE’RE STILL GROWING IN PLACE

Released July 6th, 2024

1. A Man Invited Shoelaces

2. OMGCROWSEVERYWHERE.COM2003$

3. Hatemail

4. Noelle’s Emo Song

5. Training Wheels

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Birds of Prrrey

Instagram | Facebook | Spotify

Writing and graphics by Winie Coulanges

Winie Coulanges (she/her) is an emerging writer and artist living in Tiohtià:ke/Montreal. Her art is informed by her identity and her desire to dissect the environment she lives in with care, consideration and humour.

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Montreal Surf-Punk Trio NO WAVES Talks All Ages Shows, Artistic Influences and New Music

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NO WAVES by Daniel Takacs

The soundtrack for most teens' early years is moaning vocals and distant pop icons from another decade, but some of us are lucky enough to have NO WAVES. The smell of sweat and Twisted Tea fills each venue; pink hair and neatly pressed dress shirts swarm together as the crowd swells. At their shows, young Montrealers experience the special feeling that comes as you start to uncover the ecosystem of music around you. Whether it be your first mosh-pit-induced black-eye, or wringing out a t-shirt soaked with sweat, NO WAVES is the breeding ground of Montreal's next-gen in music.

The band has a look you can't define… Maybe a kaleidoscope of indie sleaze, where Blink-182 and Surf Curse intersect? They all sit in the limbo zone before adulthood, with boyish smiles and CEGEP classes packed between shows. Their sets radiate a joyousness and respect that's rare in the industry. They want to be there as much as the audience does, and it shows. 

In the aftermath of the pandemic, NO WAVES is the light at the end of the tunnel for many, with their underpass show of August 2021 acting as a green light for commotion. They lit a fire, and the scene couldn't resist dancing around it. 

As someone who began the pandemic starry-eyed and unknowing of the music world,  NO WAVES has been a gateway into Montreal's music scene. NO WAVES is for the people who go to shows every night, and those who've never entered a venue before. They are an instant family of sorts; one that pulls you in for a hug and never lets go. 

I had the chance to catch up with the surf punk three-piece about their early beginnings, where they’re headed now, and everything in-between.

Uma Nardone for Also Cool Mag: Let's start off easy! Tell me about your first gig?

Sam: Our first show was at one of the Climate Demos, a protest in the middle of winter. Cy wasn't even there, so it was early early days. It was during our March Break and held outside. It was crazy! It was the coldest I've ever been.

Angel: Later on, we did shows in a dance studio. We weren't supposed to be there, and everyone had to take their shoes off. It was very hot and small, with like 50 kids crammed into a room. 

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Also Cool: You've begun your second stint of recording. What has it been like working on the first EP versus your second?

Cy: Very, very different.

Sam: The songs are more fleshed out.

Angel: During our first EP, we had this frustration: We really wanted to just release our music, have it out there, and start playing shows as soon as possible. It was done with this mentality of recording as soon as possible. Now that we're recording again, we're in no rush. We're revisiting old songs and reworking them. 

AC: How has the music you're listening to impacted your new music? Have you discovered anything recently that has completely changed your creative process?

C: It's ever-changing, and I don't think it will ever stop, or at least I hope not. 

A: I've gotten into more hardcore punk, but everything feels new. Lots of Bad Brains, TURNSTILE, Dying Fetus, and very Midwest emo shit.

S: It's all over the place for all of us, everything from breakcore and punk to pop. 

AC: Do guys consider NO WAVES as falling within a specific genre? How do you typically describe your music to others?

S: I call it pop. It's all pop, just pop.

A: I've come to terms that with everything we do, it comes out trashy or punk. I used to struggle a lot, ‘cause I would try to write stuff that was soft, but no matter what, it would end up noisy and loud.

C: Noisy pop!

AC: That's perfect, though, because I consider you guys—and I mean this in the best way—the greatest gateway band in the city. After COVID-19 lockdowns, you started that revival of live music, especially for a younger crowd. 

A: That's kind of our goal, to be accessible to everyone. There are a lot of bands that feel hard to get into because of the crowd, and places sometimes feel snobby or unsafe, and that sucks.

S: Right, that's what I love about us. If you go to one of our shows, every kind of person is in the crowd. If you go to different venues, there's all these different cliques or groups, and at our shows, they're all there together.

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Angel from NO WAVES with audience members, photo by the author

AC: That's so true. At your summer bummer show, I met these girls from the Laurentians who had taken the train in. It was their first time moshing, seeing a gig in a small venue. You guys help people feel safe enough to experience these things for the first time.

C: That feeling is something we prioritize. We want an environment where people can hang out without worrying and have good vibes. 

S: It's not that deep either. Shows should be safe for everyone. That's how it should be.

A: There's this thing I learned when I was really young, that has stuck with me. I was told at 15 or 16 that music is sharing. Ever since, that's been how I see music. You're sharing with the crowd, the staff and the musicians. We all share this common love, you know?

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Crowd at a NO WAVES show, photo by the author

AC: That's evident in the crowd, as well. You've grown up with the people who come to your shows, and they keep showing up for a reason. It's like a big family that keeps growing. 

S: I think it’s so beautiful. 

A: It's super sick because I see people who were at our shows five years ago, who went to our launch party, pull up to our shows now. They are the OGs of NO WAVES. 

S: People we've known since they were 13 and playing at school, and now they're grown up and still coming. It's amazing. 

AC: I can attest to that. I was maybe 12 or 13 when I went to my first show, and now I'm here. I consider you guys integral to my childhood, and many others feel the same way. NO WAVES is the soundtrack to teenagedom here! My first black eyes were at your show, and my friends' first kiss happened at your show. You guys are part of all that. 

A: I think it's so cool. We've been able to play our music and grow up with them. After the outdoor show, this dude slid into our DMs and told us about his first experience with LSD. It was so crazy cause what band gets to experience that so closely. 

S: Right, I was like, man, you're a stronger person than I am. 

AC: Tell me more about the underpass show. How was that experience for you all? 

S: Oh man, I loved that show. It was my favorite show we've ever played because of how close we were to the crowd. There was no stage, so people surrounded us. At one point, this dude slapped me on the back and complimented me from behind the drum kit. He was a complete stranger; it was so cool. The formality of a show was gone, and we were immersed in the crowd.

C: We go against that formality. We play better when not on a real stage. 

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NO WAVES by Daniel Takacs

AC: Do you guys channel certain people in terms of stage presence? Like when I was kid, I wanted to embody Sid Vicious or maybe even Zappa. Who is it for you? 

A: I would say Blink-182 for all of us. To me, they are the standard of what a trio band is capable of. Whenever I'm on stage and feel stuck, I have a guitar, and I can't move or whatever; I look up to them. 

S: Same; I channel my inner Travis.

A: I think at most shows, we're just daydreaming that we're Blink. That's our secret.

AC: Would it be a dream to open for them? Is there anyone else that you want to play with in the future? 

A: Surf Curse, too; we just have to do that. We've been thinking about it for so long. 

S: I just want to go on tour and go as far as possible with this.

A: We want to expand our horizons and explore new places. I really want to go to Mexico. The whole scene that inspired me to do everything I'm doing now all comes from there. Those kids inspired me. 

C: I remember hearing my first songs from Angel in Spanish, Los Blenders and Senor Kino; they influenced me so much. They taught me how to put on a show. He showed us all this world we didn't know about. 

AC: What's the songwriting process look like for NO WAVES?

S: It's really all of us. Every song is a collaborative effort.

A: I'll come in with a guitar riff or a single verse - these very unrefined songs. Then we'll all write over it and work on it over time. We all just pile on ideas until something comes out of it. Some songs take thirty minutes, and others take years.

S: We have songs we've been working on for more than four years. 

AC: Has playing in NO WAVES changed your social life at all? 

S: We all have the same mentality when it comes to playing: We don't feel better than anyone because of it. So many people have helped us come to where we are today, and we're really grateful.

A: People made fun of us in high school. We didn't feel cool then.

S: I just hate the mentality that people have. No one is better because they are on stage. It doesn't change who you are.

C: It's also not what music is supposed to be. Music is not a hierarchy. No one is better than anyone else. Our shows are for people who love music the way we do, that's all. 

NO WAVES holds a place in my heart that I can’t quite explain, I feel oddly devoted to the music, to the crowds and the all encompassing joy it brings. They are the band that sings to a choir of misfits, welcoming old punks and scene kids alike. 

They keep growing and as more and more people come to love them as I do, the excitement of experiencing a small history being made is thrilling. NO WAVES is ever-moving and might change, as young bands do, but no one will forget them. Everyone who's been in a crowded room with damp floors and broken stereos singing along with NO WAVES knows their systems have been shocked and their brain chemistry never be quite the same. The NO WAVES phenomena, explicable in their talent, is band who will forever be ingrained in my brain, and hopefully yours as well!

Don’t miss NO WAVES’ free Taverne Tour pizza party at Le Ministère on February 11th at 11:59PM!

NO WAVES

Instagram | Bandcamp | Spotify

Uma Nardone 

Instagram

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PREMIERE: Montreal's Love Language Melts the Winter Blues with "Little Gardens"

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“Little Gardens” artwork by Heather Lynn

When in eastern Canada, daring to embrace the cold is part of one’s seasonal lifestyle. Here to warm us up from the inside, Montreal’s indie rock outfit Love Language premieres a double-feature single and video for “Little Gardens.”

Following the release of their lush 2021 EP Trying To Reach You, “Little Gardens” boasts a heavier and edgier sound for the band—bringing to life a jam-packed tour and bouncing from stage to stage in less than a year from their first show under an overpass in their hometown. Clad with fuzzy tones and a casual, yet spunky, delivery, “Little Gardens” aligns with Love Language being described as “the band that’s playing in the bar—that all the high school kids are somehow allowed into—in your favourite 90s teen movie.”

Recorded this past spring with Rene Wilson of Faith Healer, “Little Gardens” is one of the first songs written by the band after the release of their debut album. A charming outlier for being “peppery, alive and [not] taking itself too seriously,” the live setlist favourite teases a to-be-released EP, set to arrive in early 2023.

Love Language by Connory Ballantyne

On “Little Gardens”, Love Language shares: “It's a song about two people navigating the world at different paces, desperately wanting a connection only to realize that the other person may as well be floating somewhere out in the solar system.”

Accompanying “Little Gardens” is a rosy music video, shot by the band on Super8, charting their voyage to Sled Island and New York City this past summer.

So, consider “Little Gardens” an ear-worm for your winter funk survival. Give it a spin (over and over) and watch the video below for an endless source of sunshine!

Pre-save “Little Gardens” before its official release on December 16th here!

Love Language
Instagram | Bandcamp | Spotify

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Take a Sip of Cola's Post-Punk Debut "Deep In View" (Fire Talk)

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Cola’s Tim Darcy (left), Evan Cartwright (middle) and Ben Stidworthy (right) by Colin Medley

Amidst our post-truth media landscape ablaze with sensationalism, bound by the tirelessness of superficial consumer culture, arrives Deep In View, the debut LP from Canadian three-piece Cola, out this Friday via New York label Fire Talk Records.

Composed of long-time collaborators Tim Darcy and Ben Stidworthy —formally of beloved Montreal band Ought— and Evan Cartwright of U.S. Girls/The Weather Station, the locally-star studded post-punk outfit is void of artificiality, despite its name.

Rather, Deep In View relishes in poetic revelations in a era of lukewarm takes. With an observational tone akin to David Byrne’s commanding Talking Heads personas, coupled with direct, yet animated, guitar-bass-drum arrangements reminiscent of early works by The Strokes, Cola strikes political conversation on modern life with refreshing sincerity.

Chatting with Cola, lead singer and guitarist Tim Darcy attributes the band’s “triumphant honesty” as an outcome of working as a three piece.

“The writing process for this record was pretty nimble and we could workshop things readily,” explains Darcy. “Ben and I have been writing together for a long time, and though there were elements that we wanted to bring into this new project, there were major structural differences; like working with Evan who has such a singular touch, and writing songs separately during periods of on and off isolation,” he adds. “We wanted to keep the band a three piece and see what we could do melodically with sparse instrumentation.”

Since 2019, the trio draws inspiration from each other, whether through in-person sessions or building upon demos sent back and forth during the creation of Deep In View. Drummer Evan Cartwright says the nature of Cola’s experimentation is a welcomed change.

“There is a level of trust in this project that I don’t have in most creative situations. We all give each other so much agency to be able to redirect and change what we’re working on, which doesn’t happen in every band,” he shares.

“I don’t feel an impulse to control. I actually want [Tim and Evan] to change what I’ve written!” adds Stidworthy.

“Mechanically, it’s part of the definition of a band; a chemical reaction that happens when people bring their own idiosyncrasies to the table. What makes Cola Cola is everyone’s individual contributions resulting in this record,” elaborates Darcy.

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Cola by Colin Medley

Sonically, Cola’s collaborative patterns aim to compose “worlds or moods that are difficult to pin down emotionally,” explains Stidworthy. Part of guiding audiences through an intentionally off-kilter listening experience is largely driven by Cola’s lyrics, which are often introspective, unfettered and sometimes irritable – yet always graceful.

“I did lean into a personal lens much more on this record than with Ought,” says Darcy. “I tapped into lyrical mindsets and characters as vehicles for my perspective as a writer.”  

Darcy’s arresting performance on Deep In View comes from adopting a more traditional “front-man” personality - quintessential to the band’s post-punk roots.

 “[The vocals] do have a more singer-songwriter, post-punk clunky-ness to them, (laughs). While the sound isn’t totally shocking, to us or people familiar with our past projects, listening to our songs feels different… Much more personal,” notes Darcy.

Rounding off our interview, Cola speaks of keenly of returning to touring and bringing their meditations to life.

“I’m excited to just get up and play our asses off!” beams Cartwright.

“We’re a guitar band and I think, we’ve made a good album of guitar songs. Hopefully people will experience joy and our songs will make someone feel something and experience a pivotal moment,” muses Stidworthy.

“Even when we played our first returning shows, they were amazing. It’s a lot to ask an audience to sit through a whole set of songs they’ve never heard before, but everyone who came out was great! So far we’ve been getting back into the flow and it’s like no time has passed. I hope that everyone gets to experience that very soon if they haven’t already,” adds Darcy.

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Deep In View

Out May 20, 2022 via Fire Talk Records

Pre-order here

1. Blank Curtain

2. So Excited

3. At Pace

4. Met Resistance

5. Degree

6. Water Table

7. Gossamer

8. Mint

9. Fulton Park

10. Landers

Written by Tim Darcy & Ben Stidworthy

Supercollider, Guitar (“Blank Curtain”) & Drums by Evan Cartwright

Guitar, Vocals and Lyrics by Tim Darcy

Bass, Guitar & Keys by Ben Stidworthy

Recorded by Valentin Ignat

Mixed by Gabe Wax

Mastered By Harris Newman

Artwork by Katrijn Oelbrandt

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Cola

Instagram | Bandcamp

Zoë Argiropulos-Hunter (she/her) is the co-founder and managing editor of Also Cool Mag. Aside from the mag, she is a music promoter & booker, radio host & DJ, and a musician.

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Morning Silk Talks NYC's Indie Pop Scene, "Skin," and Starting Their Own Studio

Lately, we've been spending our free time daydreaming about summer and curating soundtracks for our forthcoming main character moments. NYC-based alt indie-pop group Morning Silk fit the bill perfectly, with soft vocals and upbeat synthy instrumentals. 

Morning Silk's sound evokes the 2017-era indie pop/rock scene à la Clairo, Rex Orange County, & Her's. We chatted with the band about their experience with the scene in NYC, musical inspiration, and how they went from architecture school to indie pop.

Malaika for Also Cool: Hi! Nice to e-meet you. I'm curious what led you to music while in school for architecture. Do you think anything you learned in school affected your taste in music and aesthetics?

Frank Corr for Morning Silk: Hi! I never had much recording equipment growing up, but I was listening to a lot of bands that used DIY recording methods. Those bands helped me finish school, but then I thought, why can't I do what they did? So I began collecting some small recording gear with internship money I made. 

I was around a lot of painters, and used to be in painting myself. We were always tightly intertwined with listening to new music or just going to gallery shows/events where there was already some sort of music scene. A lot of punk bands played in Providence, so we were drawn to the idea of playing live and performing before we even had anything recorded.

Also Cool: What has your experience been like with the music scene in NYC? It seems like things have started to (slowly) open up again, and I'm interested to hear what you're looking forward to. 

Morning Silk: We are pretty new to the New York scene. I feel like I didn't really connect with a lot of music here or musicians until recently. Matt was saying that there are so many sub-scenes going on that you discover through playing shows here and whatnot. I recently started producing for a few artists, and now I finally feel like I've found my place in the city. We are finishing up our first record, so we are so hyped to play it for people! We just started playing shows with our friends and some of the artists I produce for, so we have created a little place for ourselves.

AC: How did you start your own studio? What was that process like, and what inspired it?

MS: Rob, Matt, and I would use this place called "The Tap Room" in Providence to rehearse/write and record. It wasn't really a studio at all, so we would have to lug Rob's drums from our apartment and set them up and break them down every single rehearsal. It was really exhausting, so we always dreamed of a place where we could leave things set up so we could record whatever we had on our minds right away. 

I started collecting some higher-end gear with a friend who was already in New York and just stored it with them. We would go to New York on weekends and record at a little practice space in Dan Bro. As Matt was saying, we eventually got tired of that, and Rob had found a new space. It was like a living room with a kitchen, but we could see a control room where the sink was, so we decided to try to make this the dream studio. 

We didn't have a lot of experience recording, but I was trained as an Architect, and Rob was an excellent builder, so we figured we would just figure it out as we go. Eventually, we partnered up with an audio engineer and made the space what it is today! It's very special, and we are so lucky we can record in our own self-funded/built space.  

AC: You've quoted MGMT as musical inspiration, but I'm curious if there are any local artists or friends who have helped inspire/influence your music as well.

MS: Matt was saying ever since we all started recording music, we mainly just listen to each other's demos now. Hearing what Rob and Matt are making is one of the most surprising and interesting things to hear. 

Same thing with our friends doing other things, like I am always inspired by whatever Sur Back is doing production-wise or what Richie Quake or Middle Part are working on. We are always working on each other's music now too. I guess that is a really nice way to learn/inspire each other. If I'm working a lot with a particular artist, it might bleed a little bit into the songwriting. For instance, my friend Michael is really into French House, so I might pick up a few jumping bass lines from that style here and there. 

Also, our friends Anna and Kristos are always putting us onto new things happening. In the end, I always run my ideas by Caroline (Sur Back) just to make sure I'm not making something completely insane or silly, haha. I am probably leaving out a lot of other people, but those are just some artists and producers, to name a few that we have been around as of lately.

AC: What can we look forward to from Morning Silk in 2022?

MS: I've been doing a lot of production for other people lately, so I am really looking forward to finishing and releasing our self-titled debut album. I've already started writing and recording the next album, so we plan to put out more than a few projects this year! Working on other people's projects has taught me to move faster and be more open to collaboration. We hope to make an EP this year between the two records I started recording, which will be a whole different vibe.  

Watch “Skin” by Morning Silk below

Morning Silk

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Malaika Astorga is the Co-Founder & Creative Director of Also Cool. She is a Mexican-Canadian visual artist, writer, and social media strategist currently based in Montreal.

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